What is the typical base score in a KCBS competition?

11/17/2012

Question:

In KCBS competitions, what is your typical base score? In the contests I've judged, some judges err to the side of the cook and 7 is their worst score. Others say they start at a 6 and go up or down from there.

So, should I take a 6 as it's average or really bad?

Greg Vincent
Smithville, MO

34 Comments

Ron Haag

11/17/2012 01:30:45 pm

It would have to be really bad for me to give a 7

John Busch

11/17/2012 03:03:04 pm

Your comment suggests you may be a longtime KCBS judge. If so, I am, too. When I started judging almost 15 years ago, scoring started with a 9, then points were deducted for errors. In those days, a 7 would have been a terrible score. The current KCBS scoring system uses words describing each point level. For example, a 7 is described as "above average." So, if, as you say, an entry "would have tto be really bad to give it a 7," essentially you are saying that all the entries you see are rated "above average," or 8, "very good or 9, outstanding. So, you never see 6, average or 5, below average. If that's true, I want to judge where you are judging. May I suggest you go to KCBS.US are print out a copy of the rules and review them, or, perhaps listen carefully to the Judges CD that gets played at every contest's judges meeting. Bes regards.

joeQ

11/18/2012 12:00:26 am

Many scoring changes have happened with KCBS, when I received CBJ training an entry came in with a 6 and went up or down. Not too many 9's at that time. Today, everyone knows the average score of 6 is not a good score. So to answer your question; I expect the food to be better than average and usually don't score below a 7 unless I think the entry deserves a lower score.

Doug KCBS Master CBJ/CTC

11/18/2012 04:48:14 am

When I first started judging I thought to come up with some system on how to judge an entry. I heard it both ways. Start at a 6 and move up or start at a 9 and move down. I've thrown that system or any like it out the window.

I used the scorecard we are given. It has the system that the KCBS wants the judges to use. 9 = excellent, 8 = very good, 7 = above average, 6 = average, 5 = below average, 4 = poor, 3 = bad, 2 = inedible, 1 = DQ. I use the words to determine my score. If I feel the BBQ is excellent. It gets a 9. If it is not very good, I have no problem giving a 5 or a 4. There is no need to start at a base and move up or down. That is not how the scoring system should work.

I didn't want to delve to much into inflation of scores, i.e. not giving anything below a 7. But, I will add my brief two cents worth. We are not doing teams any favors by giving BBQ that deserves a 6 or lower any favors by giving a 7, knowing that will knock it out of the running for a walk. Judges do it because they hear complaints from teams about scores that vary widely and that KCBS is going to start tracking judges scores. The don't want to get pulled aside and have the contest rep ask them why they scored something so much lower than the rest of the table. If the BBQ is bad, and yes some of it turned in is bad, then it needs to reflect that in the score.

David Hawley CBJ

12/1/2012 12:34:50 am

I couldn't agree more with your reply. I judge the BBQ that is in front of me. I use the scores as they are written. I have no problem giving a 5 or a 4 if that's what it deserves. I have been asked several times why I gave a score so much lower than the rest of the table. I said, that the BBQ that was placed In front of me and according to the score definition, the BBQ got the score I felt it deserved. Judges shouldn't be afraid to give honest scores. It does absolutely no good to the teams to inflate scores, just because the Judge is afraid of the Teams and Contest Reps.

We as judges, are here to promote BBQ! To Judge honestly. By inflating or not giving true/accurate scores, we aren't living up to our Judges Oath or helping the Teams, the KCBS or BBQ in general.

Tina C CBJ, KCBS and MBN and Head Cook

11/17/2012 01:57:13 pm

4) The scoring system is from 9 to 2, all whole numbers
between two and nine may be used to score an entry. 9
excellent, 8 very good, 7 above average, 6 average, 5 below
average, 4 poor, 3 bad, and 2 inedible. I score based on the rules and always get called out when I give a which is AVERAGE!

Paul (KCBS CBJ)

11/17/2012 02:44:57 pm

I try to score by the guidelines but usually by the time pork rolls around I get a comment from the table captain about my 'really low" scoring even though it has to be pretty mediocre for me to score a 6 or worse with most scores being 7 or 8. It seems like some people start at 9 and go down from there instead of starting at 6 like you're supposed to.

Santa (Pat Austin)

11/17/2012 04:49:07 pm

As we all know, a 7 (Above Average) will knock anyone out of the competition. And if I consistently give 7's then I get spoken to by the Table Captain or the Rep. So I use 8 as my base, and a mediocre entry would get that. I WILL occasionally give a 7, but most of my entries will get an 8 or a 9. I agree that's contrary to the guidelines, but until the reps come to realize that those scores deserve to be used, everyone judging in the contests I judge seem to give 8's and 9's if the product is at least edible. MBN is even worse.Their scoring system used to run from 4 to 10. Now they don't even list anything below a 6. And the organizers and/or reps don't really want to see anything below an 8. In fact, I had one organizer tell the judges a couple of years ago that he didn't want to see any 8's; that he was the man who accepted the judges for next year's contest, and if we scored 8's a lot, we would not be invited back. So the organizers and reps need to stop trying to artificially push the scores higher and let us judges do what we have been trained to do, or you will one day see all KCBS entries getting 9's across the board and MBN entries getting all 10's.

I was judging vinegar based sauce at an MBN contest a couple of years ago and had one that consisted of apple cider vinegar with a splash of Texas Pete, nothing else. I scored it with 6's and 7's, and the organizer brought my score sheet back to me and told me I had to raise my scores because they "wanted the team to come back." So I ave them all 10's with a 9.0 for the overall, which neatly knocked them out of the competition, but told the team nothing about what was wrong with their entry.

Randy Stewart KCBS CBJ

11/17/2012 08:04:14 pm

I score according the rules and what I see, taste, smell, and feel. The BBQ I've judged over the past season here in Utah has been pretty good with most scores in the 7-9 category. I consider 7 above average and a good score. If the meat has met all of the criteria and tastes really good, I don't hesitate to score a 9. If something is off, say too much salt, way overdone, underdone, an overpowering seasoning, creosote taste, or some other obvious error, I go down from 7. If I score lower than 7, I provide feedback. I'm setting up a judge certification training (not KCBS) for our state organization competitions and we will ask judges to provide feedback for scores of 6 or lower. We're using the same scoring criteria as KCBS but we are giving more time between turn-ins (11, 12, 1 & 2) to give everyone more time to prepare boxes and to score and provide feedback. I agree that there is pressure from some KCBS reps to raise scores but the one time I was spoken too, I didn't feel like it was a forced thing. The rep was giving me feedback that I was consistently one or two points lower than the rest of the table after two meats. I hadn't given lower than a 6 and most of my scores had been in the 7-8 range with an occasional 9. I'm a fairly new judge (6 KCBS comps at that point) so I appreciated the feedback. After reading some of the posts here, I can see why some judges are frustrated especially if they are being threatened in some way and unfairly pressured to give higher than deserved scores. Luckily, I haven't encountered that so far. I'll continue to judge according to the rules and when on the fence about a score, go with the higher one. All meat I judge will get my best effort at fairness.

Ray

11/18/2012 12:05:13 am

Being mainly a cook more so than judge, I would say that if you give out a 6 that team is not winning anything. You just told that cook he has crap and just spent $500 for nothing. That being said, the times I have judged, I have givin 6's out just for the fact they deserved it.
For those that "always" get called out by the reps, I would suggest you get retrained. I think any judge needs a refreasher coarse every 2 years or so.

Jon

11/18/2012 02:42:54 am

Totally agree, Ray! There apparently needs to be som clarity here. I Know exactly what I learned in class and I follow it. At the end of the day, there should be due defference for the cook. I will always score up if there's a question

Dave Compton KCBS MCBJ

12/15/2012 10:42:10 am

And one of the best ways to get retrained is to volunteer at a CBJ class! The organizer and instructors can use the help and you'd be surprised at how much you can re-learn just by being there.

Ed KCBS MCBJ

11/18/2012 12:12:28 am

I don't "start" anywhere. Each box is a clean slate. I don't think of what excellent would be and adjust down, I don't think what average would be and adjust up or down.
I look at what you presented and look for how you placed your meat in the box, how well you made cuts, how well cooked it appears, whether you glazed the meat to enhance its flavor or poured sauce on for the flavor etc.
And I use all the numbers available, I'm not a 7,8,9 judge. To me 6 means average, if your entry is average you get that 6, a 5 usually includes a comment card.

Dave (KCBS MCBJ)

11/18/2012 01:38:43 am

All of the above comments are excellent food for thought.

I think the challenge lies in what is considered AVERAGE

Would the best restaurant BBQ you've ever had place an average score in competition BBQ? Is that "the average"?

OR - is the average average for competition BBQ only?

OR - is average the average for all of the BBQ you've ever eaten in all your life?

Just some thoughts . . .

Bill F

11/18/2012 03:07:51 am

Probably a 7 is my average score when judging. If I'm on the fence about a piece of meat, I lean toward the cook. And in fact if you examine the summary numbers from most competitions the average individual score is closer to 7 than 6.

Dick-MCBJ/CTC

11/18/2012 11:46:07 am

This is an excellent question and I believe than if it was answered correctly AND all the judges followed the proper guidelines the cooking teams would receive more consistent and better scores! First, I believe that every judge should start every score for each entry and for each category at 9. From the nine the judge would deduct a point for each item they feel does not meet their liking. Example...a chicken entry is presented for taste scoring The chicken is over-sauced, and is dry. Score = a nine start, minus 1 for sauce, minus 1 for dry meat, this chicken gets a seven. I believe this is also the current way KCBS is training new judges. 2nd. The judge MUST score the entry within all of the KCBS guidelines in mind and give their most accurate score!!!! A judge that is influenced and changes what they believe is the best and fairest score regardless of who comments or what requests are made is a BAD JUDGE. Example: I have seen 5 judges give 9's on a pork entry for tenderness and one judge (myself) gave it a 7. The reason it received a seven was because the meat had a piece of grissle running through it. The person slicing the meat should have caught this. This was a fair and good score and I would not change it regardless of any comments or requests. I did and would give the team a comment card to allow them to know why they received my seven. It is also my personal rule that if I give a six, or lower, and sometimes even a seven, in any category I must follow up with a comment card. 3rd. Any judge who scores only to prevent follow up questions or comments IS A BAD JUDGE!!! A undeserved score that is either too high or too low hurts good cooks. Example 1: A judge tastes #4 rib for taste, this judge thinks " It's good, but not quite as good as #2 and gives #4 a 7 while #2 scored a 9. Not only is this poor judging, but is also against KCBS guidelines and very unfair to the team. Example #2: A judge tests a brisket entry for tenderness by first pulling the brisket and then by biting it. It fails both tests and the brisket should score a seven, but because the judge does not want to chance being called out they put a nine score on the score sheet. BAD JUDGING. This score hurts the team that really deserves the win and does not help the other team to improve. At one contest I was with a team and tasted the turn-in brisket entry. It was one of the best briskets I have ever tasted. I gave this brisket a nine for taste. At the awards when the team received their scores they had received five 9's and a 6. No comment slip was received. This is BAD JUDGING and this judge needs to retrain. I have also sat besides judges who scored 9's on almost every entry and in most categories. BAD JUDGE!!! This judge might cost a good cooking team a win. If a judge will not or cannot put their true and fair score on the scorecard, regardless of reason or influence, I would hope they might find a new use for their time. Judges need to remember that everyone has favorite teams and friends at any given contest. While the KCBS judging is blind the reps do know the box of their favorite team and might be watching their scores. Influencing the judging is totally wrong, If I was judging a contest and the rep instructed that they did not want any score other than 8's or 9's I WILL BE CALLING KCBS!!!! BAD REP!!!!! I would ask all judges to remember that every team, at every contest, has a huge investment in dollars, time, and energy so PLEASE only score YOUR true and fair score. Give the team the very best you have and go not allow anyone or anything to change or influence that score. Please also try to review your score with other scores, after all of the sheets have been turned in, and if you find your scores are inconsistent with others please rethink your judging and/or review your training class booklet or maybe even consider retaking the class.

Emily KCBS CBJ

11/28/2012 08:46:34 am

I agree with you on inflated scoring, that is something I've been talking about with other judges and teams for some time. We should all be judging according to what is printed on the scorecard so teams have a better idea of how they're doing and avoid putting undeserving teams higher up than they should be. However, if a piece of brisket fails the pull and bite test, 7 is not the score it should receive, that is also bad judging, that is saying that is above average. What that brisket should get is a 5 or lower for below average or worse. Regarding the brisket that you & 4 other judges gave 9's, while one gave a 6, you have to remember that judge may or may not have had the same brisket as you. When I cooked with a team, they turned in burnt ends from 2 different briskets and the tenderness varied from piece to piece, you might have gotten a better piece. Or the low scoring judge may just need their head examined.

Herb - Master CBJ/KCBS/BBQ Critic Publisher

11/18/2012 07:38:01 pm

I always start at 9. Every box is a 9 until it gives me reason otherwise. It is about as simple as that. It is too complicated and confusing to start at the average score or anywhere else.

-- Herb

Larry KCBS-CBJ/GBA-MCBJ

12/10/2012 09:24:47 am

I'm on the same page Herb is on.

buzz--cook-judge

11/19/2012 12:58:19 am

started judging when under the 'original'<?> system--start at nine---it changed and so must the judging process--appearance is scored on how bad I want to taste the entry! taste/tenderness is by the scorecard suggestions--6 is average--and for me average is Famous Daves(or any chain bbq) better gets higher scores---one thing I've noticed over the years is as often as there is a 'judge 6' that throws off the scores there is one bad bite of (chicken, pork, etc) in the box that does the same

buzz

11/19/2012 01:44:56 am

and to answer the original question yes 6 is average and in the bbq contest world it is a pretty bad thing

Robert

11/19/2012 02:50:45 am

Yes as a cook if we see a six we feel it was a bad cook, the problem being yes it is suppose to average but as the scoring has evolved a 6 is like a 2. Plus there are to many judges with different thinking in how they should score the entry.

Ike, CBJ/KCBS

11/19/2012 04:06:08 am

I am another judge who does not "start" with a number and score up or down from there. I usually will give higher scores but the bbq has to merit them. Very seldom will I score less than a 6 and if I do the BBQ team will get a comment card stating why they got the score they did. When I first started judging over 11 years ago the bbq was very inconsistent. Today's contests are so much more consistent and the bbq is seldom "average".

Mike H, KCBS, MCBJ, and backyard bbq'r

11/20/2012 04:12:26 am

I start with a clean slate every sample.
1. If it LOOKS great, and I see no faults, 9
2. If it LOOKS rough, like they didn't take much care, I think... is this what I think of as average, above average, below average? I think of the WORDS that describe the sample & use the appropriate number as instructed by the KCBS rules.

1. If it TASTES like I want to eat the whole sample and more, it's a 9
2. If it TASTES like there is too much salt, a little bland, something's not quite right, I think, is this average? Above average? Then assign the #. If there's more than one problem, I start lowering the number usually depending on how many TASTE problems there are, but always keeping in mind the WORD involved with the score..

1. If it feels juicy & tender, nice firm bite w/the teeth & NOT MUSHY, = 9
2. If it's tough, HOW tough is it, or mushy, HOW mushy is it? Is it overcooked? Then use the WORDS to figure out the score...Brisket's so tough I had difficulty with the pull test AND it was a bit like jerky that I'd chewed on for awhile? Okay, I hate to do it, but I'll give it a 5 IF it really was TOUGH. (my comment card rule= if it get's a 5 it must have a comment card, a 6 it probably gets one, depending on the problem(s).

I could go on for awhile with further comments concerning the judging process and how I think it could be made better, but maybe I'll write a blog/column.

Tom - CBJ w/ KCBS, MBN, NCPC & comp cook

11/20/2012 06:32:01 am

I don't start with a number and go either up or down, I examine each entry as presented and use the established KCBS guidelines to determine the score of each entry.

I must admit that MOST of the entries that I judge in competition are above average or better! Therefore, it is rather seldom that I give a 6 or below. I don't have a problem giving a 6 or below if the entry deserves it, but I will ALWAYS give a comment card for any 6 or below (and usually for a 7 if there is a particular reason I determine it merits a 7 and there is adequate time to complete the card).

I personally do NOT like the idea of starting with a number and adjusting from there. The guidelines on judging scores are there for a reason.

Tom - CBJ w/ KCBS, MBN, NCPC & comp cook

11/20/2012 06:45:52 am

Additionally, in answer to the question posed in the OP, if you receive a 6 from me, it is NOT a good thing. A 6 to me is "below average" for "competition barbecue". My opinion of the "Average = 6" is for average barbecue nationwide, including restaurants. Therefore, IMHO, a 6 is below average for competition barbecue (not held to a higher standard, but the standard has been elevated through excellence in competition). Average barbecue in competition is above average barbecue overall.

Keith - KCBS CBJ/CTC

11/21/2012 03:18:03 am

I always start clean slate and use the system as it is laid out by KCBS and based on life experience with BBQ. If the meat looks excellent it it will get a 9 and same for taste and tenderness. If its average I will give a 6.

I have and will score lower although it has been rare that I've had to do so. When I have I figure the cook expected it. Either way I will always fill out a card for 5 or below and often for 6 if I have reason to believe the cook will sincerely be at a loss as to why. Further, I give all 9's when the meat merits it and it is not infrequent.

I've not been called out by reps myself -- but I've seen it and the rep was wrong. Were it to happen to me I would tell the rep that the judge's scores are final and if there is a need for it I would be happy for us to take it up with the office.

Bottom line -- I score it as the numbers dictate and have found that it is usually very close to other judge's scores.

Bill kcbs cbj

11/25/2012 10:29:18 pm

I think to be a good judge you should not have a base score that you add to or subtract from. I really try to use the score card and the guidelines given on it.

BBQ Critic

11/30/2012 05:25:37 pm

I think a judge, whether they have a base score or not, MUST follow the scoring definitions on the score card. The problem is we all may interpret each definition in different ways.

So for me, when I first look at a box, I start at 9 (EXCELLENT). Then as required, I follow this:

9-Excellent
8-Very Good
7-Above Average
6-Average
5-Below Average
4-Poor
3-Bad
2-Inedible
1-DISQUALIFIED (must be approved by a Rep)

This is not hard to do. The hard part is keeping all judges on the same page with regard to the definitions outlines in scoring system itself. What is "average" to one judge may be "above average" or "very good" to another. This is one of the main reasons there can be inconsistencies in the judging tent.

-- Herb

Tom - CBJ w/ KCBS, ...

12/4/2012 07:58:57 am

Another way that I've heard the judging scores presented (and I personally like this analogy):

9 = VERY appetizing, I can't wait to grab some and don't want to pass it on!
8 = pretty dadgum appetizing, I'm looking forward to tasting this entry!
7 = looks appetizing, but I'm not too thrilled about this one.
6 = I'll eat it, but it just looks a little appetizing and kind of not.
5 = Not appetizing, but not too bad either.
4 = Not appetizing at all. I'd truly rather NOT eat this entry!
3 = Oh gosh! Do I really have to take a bite?!
2 = There is NO WAY I'm taking a bite of this without spitting it out!
1 = Glad we don't have to worry about this one!!!

jim v kcbs mcbj

12/10/2012 08:04:11 am

i guess the best way is whatever way you can be fair and consistent. in my opinion, i like the objectivity of starting with a 9 and deducting points based on what i see in each sub category like similarity in size, color, sheen, sauce application, overall appearance etc. using this method i can give 1/2 point deductions and add up the half points before i total my score for each box. if i am left with a 1/2 point left to deduct i just throw it away and give the benefit of the doubt to the cook. it seems to work well for other judge events (ice skating etc) but most importantly, i feel i can be fair and consistent when i judge lean on the side of caution for the cook. not knocking anybody else's method, just telling my process so be kind!

Pete MCBJ/BBQ Team Lead

6/2/2018 10:46:28 am

My style of judging was always start at 7, except for appearance which I start at 9 and deduct. Being a cook, I know how difficult turn in day can be, especially if the weather was being a mess and making temp management a pain. I'm probably going to get waylaid for saying this but if I'm on the fence I'll take into account the conditions of the night before. If it was stormy and downright miserable conditions, I'll err upwards if I'm wavering between two scores. When it comes to taste and tenderness if it's better than usual give it an 8 and if I have to refrain myself from eating the whole thing it's a 9. If I detect flavors that don't complement the meat or sauces that make tasting the meat impossible, I'll score down. It's supposed to be all about the meat, not the sauce or rub. I usually give many comment cards, my rule is 6 or lower gets one. I've also given out comment cards for 9's that had just a slight problem with appearance, or tenderness, so the judge gets the data that he was so close and if he just make a small change he'd be killing it. As a cook, I wish I'd get MORE comment cards so I'd know how to adjust.

It's a very hard and expensive hobby to have and while I don't agree with inflating scores to muster more team participation, giving bad scores with no explanation frustrates cooks and many just quit. Finding the right balance is what's necessary to promote our hobby and make competitions inviting and rewarding. JMHO

Ivan link

4/19/2019 11:12:50 pm

It's above average to me!

Dave Compton KCBS MCBJ

4/20/2019 11:12:36 am

In the beginning of KCBS judges were told to start at 9 and subtract points for imperfections. When I took my first class (early 2007) we were taught to start at 6 (average) and go up or down as needed - with no definition of what was average. Today's classes are taught to give the score that they think it deserves with no starting point.

Now, with all that being said, everyone SHOULD be judging according to the current rules, meaning no starting point. Judges are supposed to keep current on the rules and follow them, adapting their judging to conform with those rules. If you're following rules from years ago you are not judging correctly, you've got to catch up.

This isn't an easy thing to do, I still find myself wanting to start at 6 and go from there. I have to keep in mind what the rules tell me to do - and that's to use the whole scale of numbers and judge accordingly.

What is the typical base score in a KCBS competition?

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