Are judges getting sick of the same boxes?

7/14/2012

Question

Good idea Herb!

Judges. Are you getting sick of seeing and tasting the same things? IE. Chicken Thighs, Pork with the money and chunks, brisket with burnt ends? If you get something different than the "normal" do you score up or down for it?

I ask, cause I'm getting sick of cooking the same crap over and over. Thanks.

Ray Ringgenberg
Cambridge, Ia

Competition Cook
Certified BBQ Judge (KCBS)
Contest Organizer: Frost Buster
BBQ Team: Smokehouse 72 BBQ

Read the answers

39 Comments

Bob

07/14/2012 10:04pm

Actually I signed up to judge the 4 meats and I think I have become a better judge of these through the years, but ...
That said, I would like to see what the better (winning all the time) cooks would do with something that typically doesn't pay the big money. I like to judge sausage, sides and deserts, but have judged wild game too. On the TV shows like Pit Bosses they throw in cuts that are "different" to cook and I think it tries the skill of the cooks more than the standard 4 meats.

Roger Kirkland/FBA Cert judge

07/14/2012 10:33pm

I do know that most judges seem to be put off by different things at the tables I've sat with lately.The one thing that has seems to get a favorable response has been wings in the box along with the thighs but the pork being sliced,pulled and chunked and the sliced, burnt ends and chopped brisket are pretty standard hard to add much to these without the chance of a DQ it seems to me....

Bill F.

07/14/2012 11:37pm

No, I'm not sick of always seeing and tasting the same, because it's never the same. Sometimes it's great and sometimes not. Yes, when I see someone get creative, especially with chicken, I mark it up, well, assuming the taste works.

Noel CBJ

07/15/2012 7:55am

I'll judge whatever you put in the box. Foe appearance I don't care what it is. For taste and tenderness in my mind I will compare it to what I'm used to. Meaning that if you turn in a breast it had better have the juiciness and taste that I would associate with the average thigh. If it isn't I would think well he tried but missed the mark , they should have just turned in thighs and if it was great I would probably give a higher score for tackling a more difficult cook and obtaining positive results.

Rod Lively

07/15/2012 7:55am

Ray,to answer your question,yes to a small degree mainly I'm talking about chicken. I mean thighs,thighs,thighs and we are as guilty of it as the next team(My brother and I cook on our own team too)recently ive been seeing boxes with thighs and a whole breast cut into 6 pieces and Ive scored them higher,now that's not to say that ive scored down on any box with thighs only just that when theres something a little extra in there it seems to be scoring a little better,that is as long as the taste and tenderness is there as well.1 more thing and I'll get off my chicken soap box(smile) i recently judged a contest in Effingham Illinois and i judged a box that had regular 6 thighs but then also had what looked like maybe 10 wing sections as well,not only did this box look really good but it had really good flavor and the tenderness was dead on in my book.I scored it really high and am currently working on our wings as this is how we will be doing chicken from now on(I cook chicken and brisket on our team).Now on to Pork,personally I'm getting tired of seeing boxes with pulled pork only in it,again that's not to say that Ive scored a box down for only turning in pulled pork.Here lately Ive been seeing boxes with sliced,pulled and the money muscle in them and have been scoring them pretty high as long as taste and tenderness has been met.As far as brisket goes I kinda like the slices and burnt ends combo,my only issue is when the burnt ends taste better than the slices or vise versa,when this happens I judge the slices as the main part and look at the ends as just an extra treat.

buzz-cbj-cook

07/15/2012 8:04am

basically no--and thts because whenever some one has stepped out side the box the results just haven't been very good--at least in chicken----yesterday had a leg(frenched)/breast box on our table but it wasn't very good--it seems lots of times cooks want to do something different for the sake of difference--without really perfecting the cooking part-imo anyways. Can't really can't do too much different with ribs but have seen pork done lots of ways--really think if you are going to slice/ chunk your butt there should be pulled in the box too--or turn in more then the MM from four butts! Like to see more point in the brisket box--not necessarily burnt ends but sliced or chopped
Maybe the biggest thing is if the cook is going to step outside 'the box' it has to be done very well

Doc Kenneson KCBS CBJ, Chef link

07/15/2012 8:15am

Several weeks ago, I was judging a contest in OK and had a novice judge seated next to me. I was explaining to him how many of the meats are presented and I made a comment that I had only ever seen chicken legs presented once, in my four years of judging. WOuldn't you know it, Our very first box for chicken, was legs. They were presented very nicely and were very good. I believe I scored them 9,9,9 I applaud the cook/chef/pitmaster who steps out of the box and presents something just a little different. As long as it is very appealling to the eye, has that WOW factor, I believe it will do well.

Ed KCBS MCBJ

07/15/2012 8:38am

Mr R,
Speaking only for myself, YES!! I may not classify it as "tired" of seeing the same entries but I'm very open to seeing new looks, new pieces of meat, and new flavor profiles.
A well cooked, flavorfull, non sauced thigh or wing - Bingo!
Double cut, well seasoned w/a little heat and light glazed rib - Bingo!
Big chunks,sliced pork with some damn taste - Bingo!
Moist slice of brisket that tastes like beef....
Unfortunatly till all judges open up to new ideas you take your chances on landing on a table of open minds.
Be bold young grasshopper!!
My first walk at my first contest was non-sauced wings!! Of course I think you took 1st in chicken that day, so whatever......

M@ KCBS

07/15/2012 8:59am

I'm still a noob judge, only 7 contests in my book - so the "Same old box" is still new to me in some cases.

That being said - for me it would be easier for a cook to get a 9 making the same old box look perfect. Getting the color and sheen perfect on that 6 thigh box might be easier than something I've never seen before.

Paul D CBJ/KCBS

07/15/2012 9:34am

I for one am not unhappy when I receive the same thing I am expecting in a KCBS competition. KCBS has a standard for the meats and there is a generally accepted "barbecue" flavor profile. If something has a completely different flavor many judges are put off by that, particularly if that flavor has a tendency to linger. That said, judges are to judge by intended taste and not personal preference. If something is 'supposed' to taste like, lets say, a lemon pepper chicken then a judge is to determine whether the flavors mesh well together and if the cook achieved the taste he was going for. That is how I judge, if the flavor is different but good it gets scored well, if it is different and bad or it has something that is going to sit with me the rest of the day such as a very strong citrus flavor, as I experienced in a competition last week, it is absolutely scored down for it.
Certainly some creativity in presentation is appreciated but if you are going to start trying to cook chicken breasts you had better keep them moist or the judges will not be kind. Judges are instructed not to mark down for what is -not- in the box so if you really don't want to put in chunks and money muscle or just hate doing burnt ends it probably won't affect you much if at all if you nail the taste you're going for. I always score up for creative presentation as long as it falls within the rules and is well presented.

MKevensonEvensonmk CBJ

07/15/2012 9:40am

Ray, I want the meat to taste like the meat. No I am not bored with the 4meat selection. As far as new cuts I welcome that, just remember you are judged on All cuts of a particular meat ie. butt, so make them all equally good.

BBQ Critic

07/18/2012 4:28pm

MKevensonEvensonmk,

That's a great point. For the love of God cooks - if you are going to put more than one cut of meat in your box, please make sure it is something so good you would be willing to turn it in by itself.

If your thigh is way better than your leg - then leave the leg out. It will kill your score.I f your pulled pork is mediocre and your money muscle or chucks are outstanding - then leave the pulled out.

I can recall many times judging a box wishing one of the meats would have been left out because it would have been a 9 instead of an 8 or 7. Of course, during crunch time at a contest, this is not always easy to decide - so I do understand that as well.

All you can do is the best you can do. Just try to be mindful of this. :-)

-- Herb

Scott A. KCBS/CBJ

07/15/2012 9:54am

Howdy Ray. I enjoy seeing different presentations, but would not alter my score based upon that.
Be carefull. I judged yesterday in Kettering, Ohio. During discussion, a judge brought up pulled (or chopped) brisket. He said he would automatically score the entry low as he thought that he would know that the team was covering up a bad product. We didn't judge any brisket like that, we were just talking about different presentations. I feel he is much in error in that opinion. I love the awesome chicken thighs that we routinely get in KCBS comps. I don't care if they are perfectly, uniformly trimmed or are more natural looking. The drumsticks I have judged have mainly been overdone and tough. The best chicken I have judged this season were some breast chunks that were amazing. They did not do well in appearance, but during discussion, it turned out that every judge loved them and they got all 9's in taste and tenderness.
I judged some wings last year that were amazing. Just the wing part, not the little drumstick part. Anyway they were large for wings and I gave 9-9-9. Every judge loved them. Unless some other entry got straight 9's from every judge, those wings probably won the comp. Good luck in your future comps.

P.S. I hate fake burnt ends. Love the real thing but 80 or 90% of the ones tuened in are just meat chunks, not burnt ends.

Rick cbj/kcbs

07/15/2012 11:06am

could write a few pages on this so I will just hit on a few items.
YES I'm tired of trimmed and shaped and perfectly sized thighs with the same flavor profile . I once was presented a chicken box that contained a boneless skinnless breast sliced (small tip removed) 6 wing drums and some pulled thigh meat. I was ready to score up just because of the guts this cook had to try this. Every piece was juicy and well seasoned. Did I give it a 9? I wish I could have given it a 90.
Pork, maybe its my area but so many boxes have pork that is not seasoned (at all) after pulling slicing or chunking. No sauce no spice-- nothing. I know the cook wants me to taste the meat but a little something would help. As far as pork turn ins go there is quite a few variations out there. Some pretty haphazard and some pretty great. Have seen some nice ones on bbq critic.
Brisket. pretty much the same as pork on flavor. Not sure what to offer for turn in suggestions. Have had couple boxes of pulled (long strands) that was so different in apperance it was hard to absorb what you was looking at. Dont think they scored well for the table.

Yes I like to see a presentation thats out of the ordinary. Yes I like a different flavor combo. and Yes I do want to score up for something out of the normal. (no it dosent mean i automatically will)
See the same thing over and over and it gets boring. When you see or taste something different it really gets you're attention.

Doug KCBS Master CBJ / CTC

07/15/2012 12:35pm

I only do about 10 contests a year so I don't think I will ever get sick seeing or tasting the same things. This is a very complicated subject. Judges get used to seeing boxes presented a certain way and if they see something different the might tend to not score it as well as what they "think" a box should look like. But, changes do occur. Pork boxes come to mind. When I first started judging it was rare to see a box with MM, chunks and pulled pork. Now that is almost a standard.

As far as taste goes, I will never get sick of great tasting BBQ. Taste is the most subjective thing out there though. Try as hard as I can to be open mined, if there is a flavor profile that doesn't hit my palate then it will probably not get as high a score as something that does. This is the tricky thing for teams how do they account for the varying tastes of judges?

If you are getting tired of cooking the same old thing then maybe it is time to take a break and try something different. The main reason Teams cooks the same way is that they try to emulate the Teams that are winning. The go to sites like this and see what is getting high scores or read about other teams successes and emulate them. If you try to be different it is often met with the attitude that "the nail that sticks up gets hammered down."

Kev B / KCBS CBJ

07/15/2012 4:03pm

I tell you what I am getting sick of, over sauced chicken and ribs. The ribs are not as bad as the chicken. Sauced chicken has gotten ridiculous. It seems it keeps getting thicker and thicker each comp I judge. It has gotten so bad that I have started carry my own damp rag and towel to each event I go to wipe my hands after chicken because paper towels are not even helping now.

I do want to mark down for it and they heavy sauced ones I actually do mark down for it in appearance. I had one I judged yesterday I did mark it down and when I bit into it, the sauce had nice flavor but the chicken did not. Come on? am I judging chicken or sauce. I think at this point if I were to get a dry rubbed chicken I would automatically give them great scores. I been waiting to get that off my chest including the sauce off my fingers.

P.S. Herb, Thanks for this new Q and A fourm. I think it will be a great addition to this site.

Tom KCBS MCBJ

07/15/2012 6:33pm

The job I signed up for is to judge the four KCBS meats, I judged them the last three weeks in a row and have my taste for BBQ satisfied for a while. If a person is sick of tasting or cooking them he or she shopuld take a break or retire from the sport. Never give a lower score because you are tired of the same presentations.

Joe

07/15/2012 6:37pm

I do not purposely judge differently when seeing something different from the normal. But I do know I get excited seeing something different, does this influence me? I would like to see something different than candy thighs.

Splat KCBS/CBJ FBA/CMBJ

07/16/2012 5:34am

Ray,
I personally judge over 25 contests a year in both KCBS and FBA. I don't get tired of the 4 catagories we judge. From my stand point, Brisket and Chicken are 2 of the most difficult meats to cook consistantly good. When a cook team puts effort in with brisket to add burnt ends, this is usually a plus for me. Brisket can show the cooks deep skills in competition. Burnt ends would heighten my interest, but it can be the good or bad thing that alters the final scores on taste and tenderness. Chicken is so difficult, IMO, to obtain the bite thru texture on the skin and a taste that is not overwhelmed with sauce, particularly excessively sweet sauce. All this and keeping the meat moist internally. On ribs, well.. everyone loves ribs right?. Pork butt is one I'm always looking for that moist, smokey flavor that may be "enhanced" with sauce. To much sauce and I feel like I'm judging the sauce and not the meat.

I don't see a lot of variation on the "normal", and not sure what would entice me to give a better score. A clean appetizing presentation is the best. I'm not a one that would knock down because "the color is inconsistent", or "that one's bigger then the other" unless it's just so blantantly obvious. Say in a box of ribs that the biggest is 4-5 inches long and the smallest is 2 inches long. Or 5 thighs are glazed all having a nice tone, when the 6th one is black or near white. Pork is one of the most varied in presentation and the potential for it's appearence can be enhanced with "artful" display without getting to the sculpted look.

Randy Stewart KCBS CBJ

07/16/2012 7:23am

No, I don't get tired of the turn in's. However, I do prefer to have one cut of the meat in the box, i.e. just brisket slices, just pork pulled or sliced, not both. The reason is that if I sample a slice and a burnt end from the same brisket box and they are very different in tenderness and taste, I have to figure an average score for them both. Generally, I find that it's lower than if the cook put just the best of the two in the box.
Randy

Ike, CBJ/KCBS

07/16/2012 7:40am

I would love to see other cuts of meat being judged....however, if you did try something different it may work against you just because it is different. As far as how I judge something new or different....I judge it on it's merits and how well it is prepared.

Deb/KCBS/CBJ

07/16/2012 9:57am

I have never "scored down" (nor would I) because a cook included something "different" in a box as long as the KCBS rules were followed. Since the chicken category includes cornish hen, why not? I'm not entirely sure just how you would get different stuff with the ribs, pork and brisket categories, but if the meat is presented correctly, with no foreign objects, approved garnish, etc., who says you have to be pigeon-holed? The caveat would be not to get TOO crazy though. Maybe try something small and if the response is positive, work out from there.

Keith - CBJ

07/16/2012 11:23am

Interesting question. Can't get too sick of it because it is barbecue and there's only so many ways to do it. But the best answer I can give is yes and no.

Actually cooked in a contest this past weekend and turned in a box of drums. I have had a few cross my tables and was always glad to see some variation -- but judging by the scores I'd say the judges must have been expecting thighs because we got spanked even though the chicken was spot on in taste and tenderness.

I AM tired of seeing the same old slices of boring, flavorless, apple juiced brisket. If only it tasted as pretty as it looked! But I never get tired of seeing burnt ends. I have wondered how a box of burnt ends only would score but I was too afraid to try it. If I'd known before hand that we were going to finish DAL in brisket I'd have given it a shot.

I get excited when the pork comes three ways and when I score it I give the score of the best pieces in the box because the pork attained that level. I'd think it unfair to score it any other way.

Ribs -- if I had my way I'd want to see a beautiful box of St. Louis cut ribs every time. But I know that most disagree with me on that.

I'm not sure I answered your question -- at least not directly. But hopefully there is something in there that you can use!

BBQ Critic

07/18/2012 4:57pm

Keith,

Regarding your comment: "I get excited when the pork comes three ways and when I score it I give the score of the best pieces in the box because the pork attained that level. I'd think it unfair to score it any other way."

This is actually an unfair way to judge that type of box, Keith. You must take ALL MEATS into consideration. Based on your method, someone could go the opposite way and use the lowest scoring meat in the box because it attained that level and I bet that has been done, too.

Think about it: Two teams turn in pork in the form of money muscle and pulled. One team has superior money muscle and superior pulled. The other team has superior money muscle, but very low quality pulled. Do you think it is fair to for both cooks to get the same high score? NOT! You must judge the box OVERALL.

If I get a pork box and the money muscle is a 9, the pulled is an 8 and the chunks are a 7 - this box gets an 8 from me. That is an OVERALL SCORE.

Please rethink your method of judging boxes that contain more than one cut of meat. Thanks! :-)

-- Herb

Hance

07/19/2012 11:37am

Touche! Should be averaged; not score only the best. That would be like score a brisket a 9 when the brisket was tough, chewey, tasteless, mess but the burnt ends were tender and very flavorful.

Keith

04/29/2013 5:00pm

Not arguing -- but out of curiosity -- where does it say this?

BBQ Critic

04/29/2013 6:25pm

@Keith - I do not think this issue has had any ruling on it. Relying on common-sense at this point.

Herb

Keith

04/30/2013 11:21am

Fair enough. But the thing is – I actually had a Contest Rep (who for obvious reasons will go unnamed) strongly suggest to me that the strongest of the meats in the box should be scored with the lesser ignored. Whether or not this person was right to say it is probably easily determined – but that this person DID clearly drives at the essence of this debate. My guess is they took into account the work and the expense and figure if a cook is offering meat 3 ways they should be rewarded for any excellence attained and not penalized for something next to it that may just be very good or above average.

And further, on the other side of the coin, I sadly have seen judges mark down a 3-way box to the weakest – one piece of MM pork a 9 with some chopped garnering a 6 and a 6 going on the card. For this reason I am entirely open to the idea of splitting the difference – but only so far and as long as this can be a consistent standard that can be maintained. Perhaps this is the seed for a new and very beneficial forum in an area where everyone agrees there is a disturbing lack of standard (seemingly by design).

My original post comes from the heart. I'd rather give the cook the benefit of attempting to serve meat 3 ways without risking penalization for a weaker piece -- when there is meat right beside it with which they truly achieved excellence. To drop their score for a lesser sample seems like it would eventually only serve to ensure that at some point in the future we judges will only ever be presented with boxes holding six identical pieces of meat and never in multiple fashion. Truly -- why would anyone take a chance on more than one piece of one cut per judge?

Herb, I’m not saying I’m right (and I’m not conceding that I am wrong – yet). I certainly am not arguing or looking for an argument. I respect your opinion and those of our fellow judges. I think this is a serious issue that needs some serious attention and debate.

Keith

BBQ Critic

04/30/2013 7:41pm

Hi Keith,

Wow – great response. I appreciate your thorough examination on this matter and I agree this is a serious issue and needs clarification from KCBS.

I do believe a Rep advisory had gone out on this very topic, probably due to the example you just mentioned. However, as far as judges go – no “standard” has been set for us to follow on judging multi-meat boxes. I looked through the rules and it does not say anything about “judging the box as whole” or “judge ALL meats in the box.” So this is cause for alarm and confusion for some judges.

There is no math equation for us to follow as judges. KCBS will not say average the boxes because ultimately it is up to the judge to determine their own score. But certainly a statement in the rules that say we should judge ALL MEATS in the box would help us determine the path we want to take in formulating our final score.

This website, BBQ CRITIC, is here to confront situations like this and try to get people on the same page with regard to some of these gray areas. So again, all we can do is inject some common-sense into the issue and follow the logic best we can.

The fact that you went from wanting to give the cook the highest score from the highest scoring meat in the box to saying “I am entirely open to the idea of splitting the difference” when you do have both quality and substandard meat tells me you are truly wanting to do the right thing.

I, personally, think we should TAKE ALL MEATS into account. How much you add or deduct from the lower or higher quality meat in that same box is UP TO THE JUDGE. For me the easiest way is to average out the score or just deduct when something hits a me wrong. There is no set equation. Just know this – we must judge ALL THE MEAT and not ignore any piece in the box.

I agree it would be nice to have a “consistent standard” in place, but I am willing to help set the standard by example and helping other judges understand what they are doing. If a judge tells me (after we are all done scoring) they used the lowest scoring meat (or highest) in a multi-meat box as their final score, I will have a discussion with that judge about it in a nice way and try to help them understand the logic in judging the box as A WHOLE.

This issue is one that needs to be examined, so I am going to refer this to KCBS for consideration in adding to the rules ALL MEATS IN THE BOX must be judged so judges have a base to work from when judging multi-meat boxes.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention again. :-)

– Herb

Keith

05/01/2013 12:48pm

Herb --

Absolutely, I think we should ALL be open to ANY suggestion that will lead to improving the way we judge so as to make is as fair as it can be. It only goes to further the whole purpose of having a sanctioning body like KCBS and the rules that are drafted. I will never say I know everything about judging or cannot possibly improve. If I or anyone else ever said that I'd hope they'd pull the certification.

Obviously KCBS intentionally has avoided specifics in many of these instances. Ostensibly the aim is to keep is as an organic process to largely be shaped by those who judge -- and this is probably the best way to approach it. Unfortunately there will be situations arise such as this -- and when they do I think it wise for the KCBS Rules Committee to confront them head on the best they can. I'll be interested to learn what they say in reply.

In the meantime perhaps this would be a suitable topic for you to introduce to our fellow judges as a new thread on the site. If nothing else perhaps we could arrive at a mutually satisfactory answer ourselves. A standard (for lack of a better term) that the dozens of users here could take and use to gently nudge fellow judges toward doing likewise to avoid those who would count the low scoring meat. I personally see that as far more egregious than counting the best piece.

What do you think? New thread?

Keith

Jamie Comp Cook, CBJ, KCBS

07/16/2012 7:24pm

Yes, I am sick of sweet round golf ball chicken. Two Thighs should not be the same exact size. That is all we seem to get. As a comp cook, i hate doing this. There are so much more flavours ie savoury. But I know that they dont score well.

Frank S

08/09/2012 8:06am

I agree jamie, but our scores have gone up using the exact same recipe, but muffin tin'ing our chx....two calls in two contests...SAME exact cook methodology as last year where we never broke top 10.

Ray

07/17/2012 8:39pm

Thanks for all the replies! You guys are the best!

Mike, KCBS Master CBJ

07/18/2012 1:08pm

Good Question and nice addition to the website.

I love to see something different in a box! I love barbeque so it's pretty hard to disappoint me. A new or different flavor profile is welcome, of course, but scoring higher or lower for "different" is NOT something I do. I judge it on how I think the pitmaster wanted to present it.

BBQ Critic

07/18/2012 4:19pm

Mike,

I like your statement: "...scoring higher or lower for 'different' is NOT something I do."

AGREED. We definitely should not score a box higher or lower based on the fact it is different. However, being different can bring attention to a box very quickly. So cooks - if you are going to be different, make sure you are not sacrificing the quality of your turn in just to be "different."

-- Herb

buzz

07/19/2012 6:03am

"if you are going to be different, make sure you are not sacrificing the quality of your turn in just to be "different.""

that is the bottom line!!

Hance - MIM/MBN/GBA CBJ and comp cook when I can

07/19/2012 11:35am

Soon to become MCBJ in GBA, I've been judging sanctioned competitions now for 9+- years and have enjoyed every minute of it. Luckily I'm not a KCBS CBJ and dont have to judge chicken, which IMHO isn't BBQ to begin with, but that's off topic. However, I dont get to judge brisket often either (it's ancillary in some comps around here).

To answer your question directly though, No, I'm not tired of the same old think. Honestly, the same old thing has changed over the years. Up until 4 years ago we'd almost never see sliced pork come across the table, and when we did it usually was tough and scoring showed it. Now probably 75% or more boxes have at least a small MM sliced. 9 years ago we'd rarely see sauce on anything except ribs, and then only rarely. Now most ribs are sauced and probably 90% or more of the pork is either sauced or is presented with sauce on the side.

No, after 9 years and a bunch of competitions judged and a few competed in, I'm still not bored with it.

Something "different"... Just about the time I think I've seen it all someone will surely come up with a curve ball. That said, when I see presentations come in that are different and leading edge, I dont score up nor down for it. I stick strickly to "is this appetizing to me", score on that, and taste and tenderness same. I dont even mind if the taste doesn't taste like "traditional" bbq.

BBQ Critic

07/23/2012 9:30pm

Hance - Interesting point on how what we consider same ole same ole today is actually new from previous years. This may, indeed, continue to evolve. Can't wait to see what happens. :-)

-- Herb

Brett Osborne

12/23/2012 12:13pm

The last contest I judged, I was surprised at how the brisket box with "the most" meat seemed to matter more than flavor to several judges*. Anyone think that way?
*Was also surprised at how many judges had never competed. I was suggesting they all try it and help understand how tough it is out there!!

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