What criteria do you look for when you first see a turn in box?

7/14/2012

Question

When you first see a turn in box, what are the criteria that you look for? (i.e.. color, sauce, uniformity, etc....) Thank you.

Brad Rohring
Ottawa, Canada

Competition Cook
BBQ Team: Pistol Packin' Piggies

Read the answers

Roger Kirkland FBA Cert.Judge

7/14/2012 01:56:22 pm

I look for uniformity,then to see how pieces compare with color and sauce coverage if it has been sauced.It's amazing how one piece that is oversauced or has been cooked a little darker stands out like a neon sign in that box.Taste is my biggest personal factor, I've had some that looked perfect that fell flat and some uglies that tasted wonderful.....

Bob

7/14/2012 02:10:44 pm

Just like a resume is there something that grabs your attention in either a positive or negative way. It is hard to come back from a bad first impression in a job interview too. If first impression is a 6, then on closer inspection what makes it better or worse. It is more difficult to jump from a 6 first impression to a 9 on appearance.

Tom KCBS MCBJ

7/14/2012 02:41:26 pm

Has the team turned in the proper meat? No kidding happened just last week.
Is the box arranged uniformly?
Foreign object in the box?
Has the chicken been trimmed neatly, is meat showing not covered by skin?
Heavily applied sauce covering something?
Are the ribs cut evenly?
Are there knife marks on the brisket?
Injection blemishes?
Does the brisket look dry? Why did they not add/dip in liquid to prevent it from drying out?
Garnish.... don't give it much thought.
Just a few to get the process started.

BJ, CBJ & Cook

7/16/2012 11:45:59 pm

Please don't give garnish any thought, it is optional and this is a meat contest not a salad contest.

John - KCBS/MCBJ, CTC, Rep; MBN & MABA Judge

7/14/2012 02:54:00 pm

I first look at the overall layout of the box for balance, symmetry, color & and general attractiveness. Then I look closely. I guess one could say that I go from MACRO to MICRO...this is done in a matter of just a few seconds.

buzz--cbj--cook

7/14/2012 03:05:05 pm

there has to be a basic balance! meat/greens/sauce are the paints that have to come together to make the pic

Bill F

7/14/2012 04:46:12 pm

Uniformity, maybe color, neatness, what does that mean? I guess I'm looking for character and frankly I don't care about all the green stuff, it's a bother when it sticks to the piece I've selected. Honestly, the next box I see without garnish gets an automatic upgrade.

Dick-CBJ

7/14/2012 06:45:03 pm

Brad. My answer would be color first as this is what hits our eyes immediately. Second, it would be sauce because the usually affects the color and also if the meat is oversauced it can hide the meat.

buzz--judge--cook

7/15/2012 01:06:23 am

balance---kinda like fine art--not sure what it is but you know it when youi see it!

BBQ Critic

7/17/2012 02:57:26 am

hey Buzz - Well said. Sometimes a good box just smacks ya right in the face, You can see a 9 box coming from the end of table as the TC showcases the box to the judges. It's a great experiences when that happens. :-)

Herb

Doc Kenneson, KCBS CBJ, Chef link

7/15/2012 01:07:00 am

When that box is first opened I want to be Wowed. Whatever is being presented needs to look great. I am not a person who nitpicks an entry over a little dark here or the pieces aren't perfectly sized. I want to see BBQ. A little sauce that has glazed the meat and makes it stand out is good. Sauce should compliment the meat, not overpower it. Greens in the box, although I don't judge for the lack of them, will help you to be able to show off your product. Use it to show off the attributes of the meat being presented. Best wishes and practice always.

Noel CBJ

7/15/2012 01:09:33 am

The first negative thing that I would see would be a heavy or dripping sauce. Next would be uniformity in color whether it involves sauce or not. Foe example splotchy application of sauce on chicken or the injection stains that bleed through the meat on brisket.Next would be uniformity in size and shape of the meat presented. The last negative things that really bug me are little goobers all over the meat eg. little pieces of bark or shredded meat or bark that end up on the face of brisket. The first impressive things that I like to see are different and unique presentation neat and clean. And lastly for me I love to see a lightly sauced or glazed piece of meat as I want to see what flavor you could get into the meat and not the flavor of your favorite sauce.

Rod Lively

7/15/2012 01:11:52 am

Brad,the first thing I look for is if the meat looks Dry,Burnt or Underdone I also look to see if the samples are evenly cooked.Then I look for at least some degree of uniformity,I've seen some judges who might as well break out the tape measure as close as they are looking(usually the ones who have never cooked on a team)next I look at the sauce if it's on there I like to see a nice fairly uniform coat on all samples I also look to see that it's not too heavily sauced.lastly I look at the garnish,I know your not suppose to judge on the garnish but if it's in there you can't help but take it into consideration when scoring on appearance and a nice neat and even background of garnish is very pleasing to the eye.well that's about all I've got for now I hope this helps you out.
Rod.

BBQ Critic

7/17/2012 02:39:37 am

Rod,

You are correct. We ARE NOT supposed to judge the garnish. So DO NOT take into consideration. I know it can be hard sometimes (which is why I would prefer no garnish in the box to begin with), but that is out DUTY as a Certified BBQ Judge. Let's keep it fair for all the cooks. Thanks!

Herb

BJ, CBJ & Cook

7/17/2012 02:45:28 am

Rod, as a person that cooks far more than judges I hate to see a judge openly admit that the garnish enters your mind at all. When I do judge I mentally paint a frame around the meat and judge the meat alone. The garnish is much less forgiving than a brisket or pork butt.

Doug KCBS Master CBJ / CTC

7/19/2012 04:07:28 am

I agree garnish or absence there of should never be judged solely on it's own. It is a meat contest. That said, for me garnish can indirectly influence a score. If the garnish base is well built and packed tight and the meat sits up on top it will look better and score better. If the garnish is loose or covers the meat, it will look worse and get a lower score. In this way I judge the meat and it's presentation, not the garnish. I might be wrong on this and I welcome comments if I am, but I think this is fair to all teams.

Ed KCBS MCBJ

7/15/2012 01:54:59 am

First I look for the good, how you filled the box, how you placed the product, how you prepared the meat trim,cut,sauced etc.
Then the bad, uneven pieces, burnt sauce,unappetising appearence.
Then a quick look at your garnish, we don't judge garnish but it's purpose in the box is to frame the meat. a simple does it help or does it detract from the boxes general appearence is kinda my rule of thumb.
Most important is do I want to skip the appearence crap and just grab a piece and eat it.
That's your goal.

MKevensonEvensonmk CBJ

7/15/2012 02:45:41 am

Brad, I
Look at the box as a picture. I want it to look nice and clean, symetricle and uniform. I will almost always deduct a point for excessive sauce on the lid or sides of the box. Make sure your garnish is low enough to prevent a mess. I like uniformly trimmed pieces and uniformity in glaze. Overall you get a 9 if it is perfect, which like beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

BJ, CBJ & Cook

7/16/2012 11:55:36 pm

You judge down for sauce on the lid? What if a volunteer mishandles my box as they are being renumbered or anything else and it is no fault of mine? I am disappointed to hear that there are people out there scoring low for this...
Please take a look at the KCBS judges material or give Mike Lake a call.

BBQ Critic

7/17/2012 02:35:30 am

Hi MKevensonEvensonmk,

I would say BJ is correct in his response to you. And since we are all here to learn from each other, i thought I'd give my two cents. Indeed we are told time and time again by reps not to score down when we see sauce on lids, etc. It may simply be the fault of the turn in table or even the TC transporting food to the table. I say concentrate on the meat, not the mess on the lid. That's a great time to give the cook the benefit of the doubt. :-)

Thanks! Herb

Mike, CBJ, Cook

7/17/2012 03:58:12 am

At one comp, as I turned in my box I watched the next guy in line turn in his. I watched in horror as a volunteer shook the other guys box twice while the guy walked away. I questioned them about what they had just done and their reply was,"Oh, it's just so and so's box"! At another comp I attended, The volunteers stacked the boxes 4 high. I'll bet the box on the bottom had the lid smashed into the meat. Please don't mark down for sauce on the lids, It probably is not the fault the cook. When I turn in a box, I make sure it is clean. I cannot control what happens after it leaves my possession.

Paul D CBJ/KCBS

7/15/2012 02:51:22 am

When I score appearance I am first looking for symmetry. If the box looks like it is thrown together or some pieces are considerably larger than others it will not score well, period. My reasoning for this is that if it is thrown together it probably was not cooked in time so it is either over or under done or there was some issue with time that forced the cook to toss the meat into the box at the last second so how could it possibly taste all that great.
After determining everything is in order I look for blotchy saucing and whether the color looks appealing. If the chicken looks too dark/burnt or the brisket looks too grey it generally does not score well because frankly that is unappetizing. Pork should not appear to be mushy and the ribs should not appear to be burnt.
It is my opinion that the top appearance scores are generally given to the cooks who take the most time preparing their boxes to give each judge essentially the same experience. If there is considerable variation between the pieces in the box then chances are the majority of judges will notice and score down because of it.

Scott A. KCBS/CBJ

7/15/2012 03:01:34 am

Howdy Brad!
I'm looking to see if it says EAT ME NOW!
Certainly color would factor into this. Uniformity is nice, but I am far from strict in that regard. Some judges seem hyper critical on the chicken uniformity thing. I am not. I will deduct for too much sauce. I scarcely notice garnish and in all honesty would not often catch an improper garnish as I am staring at the product. On occasion I have deducted a point when an outlandish amount of garnish is used.
I can usually tell if something is overdone during appearance judging. I feel it's pretty simple. If I see something and I just can't wait to try it, It's gonna get a 9

I like your team name

Tim Dickey link

7/15/2012 04:11:47 am

I don't look for anything in particular, but rather just let the box impress me as it might. To me, that is the easiest way to tell how appealing the food is. After that, I look for things that might be illegal and things that obviously lavked attention.

If the food appeals to me and there is no sloppiness and nothing illegal, it gets an 8 or a 9.

Rick cbj/kcbs

7/15/2012 04:38:41 am

COLOR catches my eye first and foremost
I also like to see "seasoning specks". Black pepper,bits of herbs etc. Makes me think of flavor
meat centered in the box and evenness in size (NO NOTchicken trimmed and made to look identical)
Like the meat to look juicy
Like sauce that is even and thin to medium
Not a fan of thick pasty gooey sauce that holds brush marks
Fullness of the box

MIke cannon

7/15/2012 04:43:14 am

I thinks things are too standardized. You are not supposed to have a preconceived notion of what a box 'has' to be. I like a box that turns my saliva glands on, regardless of the greenery. Natural-looking meat product. If a judge takes off because of the greenery, we have lost our way.

BBQ Critic

7/17/2012 02:59:59 am

Mike,

Great comment regarding greenery!

Herb

Doug KCBS Master CBJ / CTC

7/15/2012 05:48:37 am

Great question! First thing that happens when I see a box is I immediately think of a score for the box. The TC pops the lid and I get that first impression. Then I take closer look for things like color, uniformity in size, color, etc. I think is the layout pleasing to my eye. Does it look like everything was arranged neatly with care or just thrown in the box. I adjust my initial impression up or down. If there are a few minor issues, I might drop a box down a score. If there are a lot of issues it may go down further. I may go up too. If I take a second look at a box and think my initial impression was to harsh or maybe that I am right in the middle between two scores I will move up a score. Finally it comes down to what the score card says. Based on everything I have seen, I think is this an Excellent box? If so it gets a 9 with no hesitation. Is it just average? If so it gets a 6.

One thing to remember is that this all happens in the span of about 45 to 60 seconds for each box. As a TC I make sure that each judge gets a good look at the box and I don't move on to the next judge until they give me some sign that they have had a good look at the box. Still it mainly comes down to first appearances I think. If you take time to make sure your box is arranged neatly and looks appetizing you should score well in appearance.

Splat KCBS/CBJ FBA/CMBJ

7/15/2012 10:53:05 pm

Brad,

When I go to judge a presentation, the "wow" factor is what primarily sets my scoring direction. Knowing the process the teams go through to prepare these boxes, I try not to focus on color, size, uniformity, etc. Sauce can be a deterent, if, IMO, the team is trying to cover something up with it. Pork nearly swimming in sauce, or brisket with more then a brush stroke of sauce over the meat, would catch my eye.

If the meat appears over the top dry, I'd consider it, but remember, that I'm judging what it looks like in this phase, not the "apperent" taste or tenderness.

My standard thought when I first look at the box is, "How much to I want to jump into that box and start eating it based on what I'm looking at."

Getting into the "sizes are different", "this one isn't the same color" or "there are globs on it" would be more observed and scored negitively only if it appears to be blantant effort to do so or an appearent rush to finish.

One thing that I get turned off on, is when teams that are there to vend, and as such are required to submit boxes, simply to be able to vend. These usually are a waste of time to the judges and competition staff.

Randy Stewart KCBS CBJ

7/16/2012 12:26:38 am

I see color first, placement in the box (should be uniform, neat), and then the trim job. I like the pieces to be placed in the box neatly and in some kind of uniform fashion, be close to the same size, nicely colored, and the sauce (if any) to be light.
Randy

Ike, CBJ/KCBS

7/16/2012 12:44:15 am

I judge on appearence based on how it appeals to your eyes. I don't like alot of sauce and I prefer that the pieces are uniforn and in some kind of order. Garnish isn't required but it does help to separate the meat from the box. I personally like a full box as it will help make the meat syand out.

Deb/KCBS/CBJ/CTC

7/16/2012 03:16:51 am

It's a combination of many factors, but boxes that tend to score highest with me (and have me drooling to try them!) are those where the meat is neatly arranged, has a nice, consistant, appealing true BBQ color (that is neither too light or too dark), and is fairly uniform in size, with the servings clearly defined so there is no guessing as to whether the correct number of samples have been included. I know that some tend to score down on appearance based on the amount of sauce on the meat (oversauced) , but with me that tends to come into play more in taste than appearance.

BJ Hoffman, CBJ & Cook

7/16/2012 11:41:58 pm

Brad,
As each box is presented to me I mentally build a frame to make the garnish a none issue. Once that boarder is blocked out I look for color, uniformity, and the types of samples provided. If a cook can make at least six portions that look near identical, look delicious, and in a couple of categories present some variety showcasing pride in their product and present that in a white foam box they will score well with me.

Hance Patrick, CBJ and comp cook

7/17/2012 09:59:08 am

None of the above. Simply put, I look upon it and ask myself one simple question: Is this appetizing.

Mike, KCBS Master CBJ

7/18/2012 07:08:14 am

I can see a 9 from across the table!!!

1. Overall/ Does it look like something I want to eat?
2. I count the pieces.
3. Good color/neat placement/general uniformity (size & slice thickness)
4. Anything illegal? toothpicks/pooled sauce/incorrect garnish?
5. I try not to get too picky. If there is one piece of chicken that is 1/2 of 1% smaller than the other pieces, that does NOT concern me. Chickens, pigs, and cows aren't NATURALLY the EXACT same size!

I will overlook a very minor problem if The rest of the presentation is Awesome.

BBQ Critic

7/18/2012 09:13:03 am

Mike,

You covered all the bases very nicely.

-- Herb

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