Cooks vs Judges ???

8/29/2011

Well, it's been almost a month since I read the front page article in the August 2011 edition of the KCBS Bullsheet and I'm still puzzled by & fuming over it. Maybe you read it, too. The one where Dawn was talking to another CBJ about going down & helping out at the tornado relief effort in Joplin? Where the CBJ said, and I quote the article here, "I wanted to volunteer, but you know how teams feel about judges."

BULLSHEET!!!!!! Where the fark did THAT come from?????

Maybe I haven't been paying attention over the past 5 bbq seasons, but I fail to see the so-called "animosity" (another direct quote from the article) between the cooks & the judges. Yeah, there's always the "What was judge # 4 thinking when he gave me a 7 on taste?" that you hear and there's quite a bit of good natured ribbing that goes on - but "animosity"?

Maybe they we're talking about the "animosity" that Bubba & Herb had when they flagged me down at Nevada, Iowa this weekend to tell me about the potluck dinner that would start at 7 pm that night? Or maybe it was the "animosity" that Tyler & Becky had when they saw me walking through Excelsior Springs, Missouri a couple of weeks ago and invited me to stop & visit? Or was it the "animosity" that Steph and Kyle always show at any comp that I see them at? Or the "animosity" that Randy had for me at Nevada when we hadn't seen each other since early June? The same with Andy & Kim, or Todd, or Ryan? Or damn near any of the other cooking teams that I know? Curt? Jorge? Rob? Marc? Chris? Scott? Anyone???

While I fail to see this "animosity" that the article talks about, I do see a disconnect between judges and cooks because they don't know each other. For the most part, the only time that a cook sees a judge is Saturday morning when the judge is on his way to the tent, and at that point "fraternizing" is a no-no. The rules say no fraternizing on the day of judging until judging is completed and that is where a lot of judges have a misconception, they think that they can't talk to a cook at any time, ever.

That would help explain the fact that I have personally introduced at least 6 CBJs to cooking teams (for their Master's) because they didn't know any teams. I'm pretty sure that if a judge walked up to a team on Friday evening and said that they were judging tomorrow & wanted to see what happens on this side of the turn-in table, well, I'm thinking that 95% of the teams out there would invite them in, sit them down & try to pick the judge's brain for what THEY wanted to have served the next day. After all,the cooks know that if the judges don't like the entry then the scores are going to tank! Some of the disconnect also comes from the cook's side of the table when all they see of a judge is when he comes in carring a cooler, not even saying "Good morning & good luck!", and then leaving right after the judging. The only thing worse (and I've seen this!) is when a CBJ comes up to a team & asks if they have any "extra" ribs to get rid of.

Cooks and judges need to meet and get to know each other, they might be surprised just how much they have in common. But for that to happen the judges need to come out & visit on Friday evening. The cooks can't come to us - we have to go to them.

So that we can end this so-called "animosity".

19 Comments

Bubba-Q

8/31/2011 10:19:49 pm

While the "other" teams dink their vintage bottle of well chilled animosity wine, the rest of us are eating from the platter of smoked cheese. Smoke on Dave!

Jeff Stith link

9/14/2011 02:45:24 pm

Thank you, Dave! Very well said one one of the reasons I'd love to see you run for the Board! As a cook, I do not have any of this so-called animosity towards judges either. You stated correctly when sometimes you wonder what a judge was thinking but that's really it. I also wish I'd see more judges out on Friday night. I also wish more of you would stick around for awards to see what happens. There are a lot of great judges out there and a lot of others who could stand to hang around with Dave and learn a thing or two about this relationship between competitors and teams.

BBQ CRITIC

9/14/2011 02:57:55 pm

If Dave Compton runs for the KCBS Board, BBQ CRITIC will be honored to endorse his candidacy. :-)

Herb

Jimmy "Cracker" Brod link

9/14/2011 03:10:22 pm

Dave if you ever want to see what its like to smoke with Smokin Cracker BBQ Team down in FLA. Bring it on Baby we love ya.. Thanks for shooting it straight!

JR norcal

9/14/2011 03:50:30 pm

I would love judges to spend some time under the tent. I really think that a judge should have to do ride along after there 1st comp judging, then there 5th comp, then after 15 comps. I would love to hear there thoughts and to show them how hard it is to make those salad boxes!!! I love talking to judges but most will leave right after the judging and I think that were the some of the animosity may come from.

Herb - Master CBJ

9/14/2011 06:10:42 pm

In my experience as a new CBJ, I was unsure if cooks really wanted to talk to me or not. Then I met fellow judge Dave Compton. He introduced me to cook after cook after cook - many which are now my friends and I look forward to seeing them at contests. They come from all walks of life - a huge interesting bunch with lots of stories to tell. Yes - cooks at times bitch about judge scores and judges bitch about boxes. Cooks gripe about other cooks and judges gripe about other judges. It is just like anything else in life - it is human nature. Bottom line? In my experience, cooks are always eager to speak with me about judging and I'm always eager to hear their tips on making good Que. Some cooks prefer to keep to themselves and that is ok - but not the usual case. You know Watching awards was not near as fun as it is now. Experiencing friends win calls, no matter who they are, is always exciting - even if you compete against them. That is EXACTLY why I love this sport. The COMRADERY in competition BBQ is unmatched - regardless of our differences. :-)

Cindy Juhl

9/15/2011 12:50:27 am

Well said Dave!! We wish that judges would be required to cook with teams more often too, as we believe that by cooking with a team, more than once, has made us better judges. Animosity, was a really bad word choice by the article's writer.

curt cbj . contracted cookers

9/15/2011 01:55:39 pm

Dave great write up.some contest there is animosity between cooks and judges.alot of times it is just the judges called out. but there are some real ass's out there that cook.God knows I have acted like one atime or two and have blamed my scores on everybody but myself

Dave

9/15/2011 02:05:16 pm

Thanks for all of the kind words!

Jimmy, we've met a couple of times at the Royal - last year you kept telling me that the red Spicebox would match my truck :>)

Curt, what can I say - we're all human! But when you calm down you know where the judge's scores came from and you don't hold the judges to blame (for the most part) :>)

Jeff & Herb, I'll give it some thought>

Hance

9/22/2011 01:08:12 am

C'mon now, you know that judges are from Mars and cooks are from Venus! :-) For those of us on both sides, we're the ones truly messed up!!!

Seriously, it's rather like Herb said. I haven't really seen the animosity. Yes, there's complaining back and forth, but most of it is good natured and all part of humans being humans. It is afterall a competition. Most of what I've seen is BBQ is a community, a very wonderful embracing community of people that want to learn and help one another, judge and cook alike.

Thomas

9/22/2011 02:44:42 am

GREAT article Dave!

As far as animosity, I've not "seen" it, but I sure have "heard" it!!! On another forum the cooks constantly cut down the judges for EVERYTHING!!! Some have even said that they would rather NOT have a CBJ judge as they have a vendetta against all cooks!

As a cook and judge, it makes me sick to see some of this garbage going on!

Can't we ALL just get along?!?!?

Abel CBJ link

9/22/2011 11:32:17 am

I personally was invited into the sport and became a judge as a result of a team. I have never heard of or personally been a part of any animosity between cooks and judges and after reading the flaming harsh comments from some cooks it's clear there focus isn't on improving their score, but trying to knock the person giving it. I have however suggested that a small amount of finishing sauce or spice rub on a rib would have helped a score during live judging only to be looked at like a fool. However the overall score for that competitor was below 6 hrmmmmm.

Roy Pruitt CBJ since '03

9/23/2011 02:12:45 am

My wife and I had to take some time off a couple years ago for my health. I tried to convince everyone Q would make it better but anyway thats in the past. When I started on the circuit again I noticed a distinct difference in the way the "new" judges judged and felt towards the teams. Somewhere a bug has gotten into the training system in my opinion. They judge on the stupidest of points, and they don't know when to approach teams and get to know them. They seem to arrive at contests minutes before the judging and like the jury at a trial wait for the hanging. Who is training these new people????

Dick - CBJ

10/4/2011 11:49:55 pm

COOKS AND JUDGES PLEASE STOP AND LET US RETHINK OUR COMMENTS. I can agree 100% with Dawn's article and if each of you will slow down, cool your jets, and rethink past contests comments made at both the judges tables and at the cooking sites I do believe you will also have to agree with Dawn. Before you send me your nasty comments PLEASE relisten to the next few comments made at the judges tables or cooking sites. While there are many excellent remarks being made above a lot of facts are being overlooked. First, have you ever heard the name many cooks refer to the judges as? Well, for the uninformed it is the F------ JUDGES. How many of you have had a judge ask you if they can cook with your team to complete their Master's to only tell them you do not allow that? Have you ever heard the comment "I don't want any judge at my site just so they can sit and discuss me later? Do all of the cooking teams realize that by KCBS rules judges are NOT allow to talk with them until the contest is over? Have you attended a awards ceremonial and listen to the comments being made? Do cooking teams realize that we as judges many times travel for hours to judge a contest. If we cannot afford the additional expense of staying over we must leave asap after the judging is complete and many times this will be a 10 to 12 hour day. As judges must cook with a team to complete the master requirement which is in place to teach a judge the many hours and large expense a team goes through just to enter a contest. It is necessary for the cooking team to also realize the expense and loss of time that many of the judges incure, with no chance of recovery, to judge a contest. The problem with cooks not understanding the judges and also the reverse WILL Exist simply due to the fact that in a contest with any size more cooking teams loose than can win. The only thing, I believe what Dawn and the bbqcritic on this site is trying to accomplish is to reduce the harsh feelings and bitter comments as much as possible. PLEASE review the many good thoughts and statements made above and then make sure we are NOT the ones who accelerate any of negative remarks. In real life there will always be some good cooks/judges and some bad. Maybe we should remember to "LET'S WALK A MILE IN THEIR SHOES" before we comment or pretent to know them. I really cannot believe that anyone is going to get rich doing BBQ contests so maybe we all can remember to respect, appreciate, love each other, enjoy the contest, and have fun. As one wise person stated to me about a organization many years ago, "The bad will weed themselves out." I do think that because you are on this site you must be one of the good, must care and maybe that is why we might have a problem understanding the ones who don't really care? Best to all of you for your concern and may you all have many GREAT CONTESTS.

Dave Compton

10/5/2011 03:28:36 am

Well Dick, the only "nasty comment" that I have is that you seem more interested in laying blame & fostering the "animosity" than you do in finding a solution. My point was to try to get the judges & cooks to know each other and to realize how much they have in common rather than to magnify their differences.

Personally, I haven't seen all of the hate & discontent that you have.

I must be judging in a more friendly area.

Lt. Sanders

10/5/2011 07:43:56 am

I've been judging for a few years now and I really haven't seen the animosity that is often talked about. The judges that I've met AND the cooks that I've met are some of the nicest people I've ever come across. I've never heard a judge tear apart any cook- before, during or after a competition.

It is a competition, judging goes on and teams are ranked. I feel a responsibility to the teams to take my Judge's Oath seriously. That may sound corny, but I understand a lot is riding on the line for the cooks- not the least of which is time, money and bragging rights. I'm sure there are people who may be hurt or disheartened by the results of the judging. I'm also sure that some of that may lead to hard feelings toward the Judges. I'm not quite sure how to get around that, it's human nature.

I know that there have been discussions going on in KCBS about having master cooks. I know quite a few cooks are judges, but I think that if they do put forward some type of 'master' designation that being a CBJ should be part of that process. I originally became a judge because I wanted to learn how to cook better, and I think it has. Are there people out there who cook better than me who never took the class? Heck yes!! But the class does help put it into perspective, at least it did for me.

I love being able to walk through the competition area after judging and talking to the teams. I would hope that my experiences are the rule and not the exception.

Herb/Master CBJ/Certified Table Captain

10/5/2011 08:56:42 am

@Dick

I think Dave, Dawn and Dick all want the same thing - to have cooks & judges respect each other. However, cooks and judges have to give each other some slack.

Yes - cooks have referred to judges as "those f---ing judges." When comments like that are made, it is aimed at their scores and not any particular judge. The cook is not getting personal with anyone, they are just venting to their fellow cooks about their scores. Allow that!

Yes - some teams prefer not to allow judges to cook with them for their Master cook. That's ok as I've stated before some teams prefer to keep to themselves while others may be more social and open to the experience. Allow that!

There will always be comments made by cooks about scores; and judges will always have comments to say about the food turned in at the judge table. That's part of this beast we call competition BBQ.

Unless someone gets in your face, don't take it so personally.

Regardless of how a team feels about their score, it has been my experience that most teams welcome judges to stop by after judging has concluded and visit. I love giving feedback to cooks and they always have an open mind to my comments and ideas - even if they do not agree with all of it.

So for the love of God, Dick - "slow down, cool your jets." :-)

-- Herb

Dick - CBJ

10/5/2011 12:19:59 pm

To all. The reason I responded to the blog was because I felt the article punished a person (Dawn) who also was only trying to make the judges and cooks respect each other. You were correct and thank you Herb. Many of the cooking teams do not give consideration to judges who do not have time available to visit them on Friday nights. Maybe Dave has this time and can visit more than others, but please do not assume that all judges can afford this time. There is no requirement for judges to arrive on Friday and have dinner with teams or to stay and visit after the contest on Saturday. We for one are not allowed that luxury and it is unfair to have others judge the judges who can not comform to this suggestion. I think the word "animosity? might have been taken too seriously and Dawn's article was written to have judges and cooks RESPECT each other. I don't really think she needed to be taken to task for one word. Stop and think and if someone really feels they can do the job better, then step up and do it.

Cyndi link

12/4/2011 04:44:06 am

I have a unique view as a barbecue writer and blogger. I don't compete or judge, since I am busy finding stories and taking photos.

It's been a real pleasure getting to know teams and judges. I've found everyone to be very open and nice. I think the various groups do respect each other. They may talk a little smack from time to time, but I've not heard anything mean spirited.

My perspective is different. I'm not invested in the comp world specifically. I drop in when I have extra time. I love hearing the stories and getting tips. I bring this world to home grillers with newspaper, magazine, and blog articles.

I hope to meet more of you - teams and judges. I have my Yes You Can Grill web site, Barbecue Master blog, and I freelance. I'm also on Facebook and Twitter under my name. I respect all of you and what you do and thank you all for what you do and for taking time out to talk and take pictures.

Dave Compton
June 5, 1948 - Dec 19, 2020

Dave Compton wrote this blog prior to being elected to the Kansas City Board of Directors. Hope you enjoy reading Dave's thoughts and opinions on BBQ.

When Dave passed away in 2020, it was sad to see him go. On a positive note, Dave is now with our Lord & Savior Jesus in Heaven.

One day we will meet again, my friend. - HK

DAVE'S BBQ BIO:

KCBS Master BBQ Judge

Competition Cook

Judged over 100 BBQ Competitions

KCBS Board Member and served on KCBS committees including
Philanthropy and
Rules Committee.

Known as Judge#6

Loved making Smoked Cheese and shared with judges & cooks.

Big sense of humor
Big Heart
Loved by all!

VIDEO: Dave Compton recites the Judge's Oath at a contest in Nevada, Iowa and judges his 100th contest.

Cooks vs Judges ???

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Dave Compton
June 5, 1948 - Dec 19, 2020

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Cooks vs Judges ???

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Dave ComptonJune 5, 1948 - Dec 19, 2020

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Dave Compton
June 5, 1948 - Dec 19, 2020